The 19th Century French poet, Charles Baudelaire, wrote the devil’s greatest deception was convincing the world he didn’t exist.
On Monday a German federal court upheld the July conviction of Auschwitz SS camp guard, Oskar Gröning who admitted to witnessing the reality of Hitler’s Final Solution but had no direct role in the killings.
Oskar Gröning has been found guilty of being an accessory to the murder of 300,000 Hungarian Jews. He was sentenced to a four year jail term.
The ruling is important because it overturns an almost 50-year-old German legal interpretation, where an SS dentist at Auschwitz was acquitted because direct knowledge without actual participation in mass murder was not regarded as sufficient proof of guilt.
Full column here:
All this lot have got a massive boost out of the Trump campaign and Electoral College victory, too.
Here’s a bit of a moral quandary for you, too: what’s worse: an outright Holocaust denier, or a Holocaust justificationist, or someone like the late German historian, Ernst Nolte, who pretty much straddles the line between normal historian and one who justifies the locking up of Jews, etc. in concentration and extermination camps?
I think the point should also be made that the SS weren’t just any old grunts ordered to guard the camps in Poland and Belarus, but the crème de la crème of Aryan National Socialist manhood – or at least intended to be.
Gröning seems also to have incriminated himself through his contrition and honesty – without being as utterly self-serving as someone like Albert Speer. Or anywhere near as corrupt as much of the rest of the NSDAP apparatus.
I wonder if surviving members of the Wehrmacht, the OKW, and similar organisations might be looking at charges since they also participated heavily in the atrocities of the Nazis including the Holocaust?
Good comment, Rhys. Groening’s jail sentence is the only problem I have with the process. Given his willingness to take on Holocaust deniers and refute their vicious lies with truth born from his own experiences, he should be free to tell his own story.
I agree that Groening’s cooperation and desire to tell the truth should have got him a get-out-of-jail-free-card.
While not perfect, I think that, in a similar situation, the South African Truth and Reconciliation hearings did a lot to deliver closure for many victims of apartheid., if not justice.
Great comment TO. I strongly believe the Truth and Reconcilliation Hearings averted Armageddon in SA. Yvonne would probably have some great insight into this.
Razor, I left SA when it seemed there was never going to be an end to apartheid.
It is of credit to both men that Mandela and de Kkerk could smoke a peace pipe together.
Yrs, I think the reconciliations would have helped to bring closure for those affected by the injustices of the regime.
Sadly, things don’t seem much better on the whole. Zuma very corrupt and close to being thrown out and a lot of unrest and crime.
I have never returned – I never look back. I was ecstatic to receive Australian citizenship and never regret getting us out of there.
I’m aware the following observation may have previously been made but I think its worth making again.
Given the subhuman connotations attaching to the word “denier”, vis-a-vis The Holocaust, perhaps even linking the word “denier” in this instance, however tenuous, with the various contemporary genuinely held unresolved beliefs on climate change notwithstanding Malcolm Roberts’ views, such a linkage may be seen to be either depreciating the enormity of The Holocast tragedy or uduly elevating the variously perceived views of those concerned with the CO2 in our atmosphere.
Regarding the recent decision by the German Court, this will no doubt be a welcome outcome for those who have still be unable to reach a closure on the loss of their loved ones by Nazi atrocities and who may now be able to attain closure via the legal precedence that has occurred.
I think its also worth noting however, there have been other holocausts involving subhuman activity that have followed since the outrages of 1939-45. One that comes to mind is the Rwandan genocide with the mass slaughter of some 500,000 – 1’000,000 wretched souls. While not on the scale of The Holocaust, it appears to have largely failed to attract any sustained examination or resolution for the families concerned. Could it be due to the inaction at the time leading up to the Rwandan holocaust by the UN, US, UK and others being a critical factor?
One would hope there are no racial overtones connected to it seemingly being swept under a holocaust carpet.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Tribunal_for_Rwanda
Thanks Jack, I was not aware of the ICTR. I should have vacuumed under the carpet.
Some interesting Tribunal milestones and achievements nevertheless:
– Established in 1994
– After 15 years ‘work’ 29 perps convicted
– In 2010 UN Security Council wanted it closed by 2014
– Subsequently wound up in 2015
Carl I have always found the use of “denier” as an epithet for those that do not accept the new orthodoxy on climate change as offensive and an attempt to close down debate essentially by intimidation. The Holocaust is a matter of historical fact – there can be disputes around the details but not around the core facts – it was a well organised attempt to murder entire groups of people solely on the basis of some intrinsic trait – ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation etc. In the climate change context it is about stifling debate on an area that has overwhelming scientific evidence pointing one way but, particularly in relation to the forecasting, it is a long way from mathematical proof. Debate should be encouraged not stifled and there is nothing immoral about holding an opposing view, however foolish, in the context of a scientific debate. Not so in relation the history of genocide.
For what it is worth I think discussions of comparative evil between the all too numerous genocides in modern history a futile exercise. Evil is evil. How terrible it is depends on how close one is to the victims.
SimonT – I think we may be offering similar comments. I hope so. If there is a difference, mine were clumsily put, yours were more succinct.
Upon reflection, and in an anthropological context, perhaps my use of “subhuman” was out of place. As Homo sapiens, we have evolved. But whether it be from Buchenwald to Barbaro, we obviously haven’t reached the stage in our evolutionary cycle where we no longer have a need to kill each other.
Not even sure where “evil” fits in. Perhaps we’re all afflicted?
Carl yes I wasn’t disagreeing with you more just amplifying on the same themes.
One could say in 21st Century speak, the Nazis were literally draining what they deemed was the swamp. Doomed from the start. Interesting movie about a bawdy house in Germany during wartime and in an interesting scene the Gestapo record an upper class twit Prussian type officer gloating to a girl that all the population had fallen for the Nazi party propaganda BS and in doing so, put a bunch of lying, scheming, treacherous & murdering gangsters in charge. Food for thought.
there was a discussion of 18C at my local at the weekend, best comment was from an American friend,
“How could we have a conversation if we were not allowed to insult or offend someone on the basis of their national or ethnic origin.’
given that the group consisted of an englishman who went school in wales, an englishmen from the scottish border, an American raised in Westchester County, a Pole from Chicago, an Irishman and one Aussie, and that taking the P is our mutual hobby, he made a fair point.
HK jack, the correct response to your american friend is that you can have such a conversation. Refer him to 18D.
And around and around we go . . .
s18D covers comments for which there is a legitimate artistic or public interest purpose (as determined by a court). What if jack’s mate just wants to make a gratuitously insulting comment for no other purpose than to get a rise out of one of the others? You know, like people in Australia used to be able to do in the name of banter and fun until the Commissariat set up by Keating’s Politburo got in on the action and all the small-minded fascists and totalitarians jumped on board?
Come off it man. If a group of non associates have such a discussion why would 18C even be raised.? Talk about grasping at straws. You blokes have lost the plot. Talk about conservative renewable outrage. Was your tea warm enough this morning or do you want to piss and moan about that too and blame the left wing gay muslim hipster who made it for you? FFS Get your head out of your arse. Stay away from your starvation diet if this is how your brain functions now. You need the carbs man seriously. Add the cup of cement to your diet.
luckily you’re such a light weight no matter how depraved you try and be you will never meet the 18c threshold.
18d covers GOOD FAITH comments TBLS. Thats the most important bit. If its in good faith TBLS thats okay. Even a sporran wearing, freckle faced, ranga type Scotttie like you should know that. See? You may not like that but its said in good faith. If I had really let loose then you may have a case but it would have to be pretty bad to get caught by 18c.
This is the thing, you guys are panicking over nothing. In the right circumstances an insult is quite acceptable. Its when it goes over the top that it becomes objectionable. And the truth is it does need to be pretty over the top to get hit by 18c. The Bolt case clearly shows that and the Prior case confirms it. Basically to get busted under 18c you need to be really intended to hurt – if the evidence indicates an intention then your good faith defence is out the window. Again, the stuff over Leaks cartoon is a case in point. Personally I consider that cartoon racist. But did it offend under 18c? No, because while in my opinion Leak was a bit of a knob for drawing that cartoon (it was IMO racist and made no real useful point) there was no evidence – that I am aware of – that Leak was intending anything but contributing to the public debate (even if his point was made in a pretty hamfisted way).
The fear mongers have got you all stirred up on this TBLS. I really recommend that you talk to people like me who know what we are talking about on this subject and are – although you may not believe it – trying to steer you straight on it.
TBLS, you’re not making much effort to understand the AHRC’s role re 18C. As I’ve attempted to explain, all this so-called Commissariat of yours can do is attempt to conciliate the parties, at no cost to them. If that fails, the complainant then has the option of going to court. If the AHRC didn’t exist, more complaints would just go straight to court without settling.
There’s room for debate about 18C/D, but the media pecking-party against the AHRC and Triggs personally is irrelevant and deceitful.
Geez you have stirred the pot over the wall Jack.
I am curious where all the current anti-Semitism came from.
I have a mate who is extremely tolerant in all his views but over the last few years he has become very anti Israel and borders on being anti-Semitic, He is extremely pro Palestine. He is rusted on Labor and in many ways reflects the ALP’s attitudes.
I have another mate whose parents were Jewish but he is an ultra atheist and has the same tendencies. He should know better considering his parent’s experience in WW2 but apparently not.
It does not augur well for the future as this pair are very intelligent and caring people and I am sure there are many more like them.
As to imprisoning somebody who was “there”, I can understand the original German judgement as millions would have been imprisoned.
I think that, after 70 years, unless a person was actively involved in the murders, it is time to let go. Memories as to what they did would be very fresh given the peculiarities of old age memory and I suspect many, like the survivors of their horrendous camps, do not sleep well at night.
When I view the way Israels democracy has been corrupted by the settlers and the ultra orthodox jews, I am filled with loathing and contempt.
When I see ultra orthodox jews wandering around with their silly hats, bum fluff beards and silly suits, with their silly ropes around their neighbourhood so they push push chairs and cook on “the sabbath”, I am filled with loathing and contempt. When I read that one ultra orthodox community in the UK has started doctoring school textbooks to eliminate any reference to women being other than homemaker I get even angrier and thinking ver dark thoughts.
Does that make me anti-semitic? My philosophy is, religion is crap, crap is religion that is all you know and all you need to know.
No doubt you would feel the same about Muslims and their treatment of women, their call to prayer and various other rituals. Add to that the ritualistic activities of native Americans and Aboriginal Australians. The Hakka by the Maori. If you feel uncomfortable about immediately answering yes then go and have a long hard look at yourself.
Razor, “the ritualistic activities of native Americans and Aboriginal Australians”, and the Maori haka are harmless, the activities of the settlers and the ultra orthox are not, ditto extremist Muslims and evangelical Christians and the Buddhist mobs terrorising Rohynga in Burma. To think that I will not tolerate the intolerant does not mean I have to take a good hard look at myself!
UQ, every Easter the mayor of Jerusalem makes an appeal to the ultra orthodox not to spit on or assault the christians. Falls on deaf ears. Being anti Israel is not being anti semetic. Israel has been hijacked.
Is spitting the same as the ultra orthodox Muslims do to Jews?
Que? Price tag ring a bell?
P.S. Your prejudice is showing
AHEM: It was just a glitch with comments at The Aus so I’ll put the Hinch item up again. Caution please, good people.
Is this anti semetic? http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4887039,00.html
darren, ” It boils down to the same thing – being defamed basically means youve been offended about what someone said to you. Its a distinction without a difference.”
i must be out of date, and it is twenty years since i had a defamation case on my desk, but as i recall it, the test related to what the general public thought of the plaintiff after reading or watching the material, not whether the plaintiff felt offended by it.
did the material cause the plaintiff to be held in hatred, ridicule and contempt springs to mind.
I think you defamed Daz. Being a lawyer an all son.
Jack unfortunately your column has brought out some people on the other side who really should be left under the rocks they crawled from. Never has “East Berlin” been a more appropriate analogy.
Nonsensical moral equivalence is strong over there.
For one, the Germans actually treated the Soviet POWs far worse than even the Soviets treated any Axis force. We’re talking almost 3/5ths deliberately starved, shot, and maltreated and tens of thousands gassed, most of them within the first winter of the war (over 3 million in total). The Axis figures are about a third of that – horrendous enough.
The Italians post-1943 come in next.
I wonder about the wisdom of this conviction.
If, in a hellish alternative universe, Sarah Hyphen-Young were leader of the world and decided to prosecute those involved in Australia’s immigration detention system would those like myself who worked for the department also be considered criminals because we knew what was going on and had occasional contact with detainees?
I have no problem with the conviction but instead if a jail term a community service order where Groening continues to counter Holocaust deniers through his own experiences at Auschwitz would be a better use of his time.
Absolutely I agree with that. It seems a tremendous opportunity for this man – who clearly feels the weight of his conscience – to do a very good thing before he dies.
Countering Holocaust deniers sounds worse than prison but I get your point.
In the space of a day you’ve raised the spectre of Barnaby as PM and SHY as leader of the universe. I’m here if you need me.
Crikey! You’re paying more attention to me than I am!
I’m not without issues mate!
When I take over Australia BLS only your off duty behaviour will be subject to intense scrutiny.
Thankfully almost all my behaviour is off-duty these days and my on-duty stuff only involves roasting the remains from animal death camps. If God is a chicken, a lamb or a steer, I am in DEEP doo-doo.
Animal death camps? We call that deer season back home. 598,867 this year. Have to call the brothers and see if they filled their tags.
TBLS the answer is no. But why invent impossible scenarios into the discussion?
Why give a definitive answer to an impossible situation? In a world where SHY ran things literally anything would be possible.
I’m not sure what to make of that person or others in a similar situation being charged as an accessory to murder (or in this case genocide). All soldiers follow orders, or are trained to. Should the witnesses to the ISIS beheading’s etc be charged similarly? What of an 18yr old Syrian scared for his own safety witnessing such acts? Complicado methinks.
And what’s the bet JB has a dog-eared copy of The Secrets of the Federal Reserve with many an underlined quote, scribbled note’s in the margins and thousands of !!!!’s. If there’s a new conspiracy in town our man Jean has front row tickets!!
Milton, regarding all soldiers following orders, it was a highly decorated SS officer – Schrader (cant remember his first name) and a highly decorated Wehrmracht officer (Sepp Gangl), who fought against SS troops WITH US soldiers and Austrian resitance fighters at Schloss Itter – which was an SS run prison for high ranking french dignatories (including De Gaulle’s sister). The SS units sent to the castle had orders to “liquidate” the prisoners. The actual ss guards and their commandant (Wimmers) abandoned the castle, fearing the repurcussions of being responsible for following the liquidation order. Not a whole lot of order following going on there. Gangl was killed by the way – the only casualty on the “allied” side of that battle – and is regarded as a national resistance hero in austria (despite being german). This occured 5 days after Hitler’s suicide, at a time where most people were expecting a german surrender but ss units and other fanatics were going on a rampage. The battle at schloss Itter was – literally – the last battle of WW2 in europe.
Some SS units fought through the whole war and were never recorded as committing war crimes. The SS Nord division in particular fought in finland against the russians and when the finns surrendered the russians directed them to eliminate german forces on their territory. The Nord division fought a grim retreat north to german occupied Norway (around the top of sweden) and arrived back in germany just in time to be annihilated by US forces before the cease fire.
4 years jail for being an accessory to murdering 300,000 Hungarian Jews, mmmmh, kind of a light sentence as far as numbers go, being an accessory to murdering 1 person can get you a maximum of a life sentence in Qld. On the other hand, like someone said over the other side, deserting his position when he found out what was going on would have had him arrested and shot.
He is 95 Mack…
Not a huge comment but they obviously got most of the glue off your hands. You’re getting too old for that sort of stuff, TV.
Not me Milton. I suspect that they were from Queanbeyan.
Yeh, I thought about it. Govt sending a message methinks.
They probably don’t want be the country with a 100yo in gaol either
Castro was responsible for the deaths of 10s of thousands but he was celebrated by lefties all around the world including the Canadian idiot PM.
Pol Pot was responsible for 1.5 million deaths and nobody thought to bring him to justice. But the idiots praise him as a kind and gentle man
http://natethayer.typepad.com/blog/2011/11/khmer-rouge-apologist-noam-chomsky-unrepentant-.html
Gee whiz. I don’t want to even begin with the false equivalences but Cambodian courts have been trying Khmer Rouge cadres for years. No one denies Pol Pot’s regime killed millions. Thousands, indeed some in power in Europe, the ME and elsewhere have promoted the wicked lie of Holocaust denial and the noise is getting louder.
Robin, had this argument a couple of years ago. Castro was responsible for about 17000 extrajudicial killings during his reign. This is about the same as the US during the same period. Difference in per capita rate but considering the two countries are supposed to represent polar opposites not really much difference.
The good ol days. The only pathway to inclusionism
I’d swallow the sautéed frog legs, Jack, and wear the Elitist tag with new-found loyalty. But I’d have to draw the line at cauliflower, caramelised or not.